After my most recent pecha kucha presentation, someone came up to me and asked a question: “What is Indianapolis’ identity?” She noted that when you think “Texas” a whole series of associations comes to mind: ten-gallon hats and cowboys, “everything’s bigger in Texas”, a certain exaggered masculinity combined with traditional “Yes, Ma’am” manners. But Indianapolis didn’t seem to conjure up anything for this person or those she worked with. It was a constant topic of conversation. This is, perhaps, not uncommon in the area. I noted how Louisville struggles with the same questions of identity.
I attribute the lack of strong identity to a few factors:
- The city’s image is tighly linked to that of Indiana as a whole, and thus to a general Midwest image. It has not traditionally been viewed as distinct from its state in the way that, say, New York City has been.
- Indianapolis has not historically been prominent on the national radar because it is a smaller city.
- The images that are conjured up when thinking of the city are those that cause embarrassment to a lot of people locally, such as auto racing and tractors.
Think of the first point. What do you call someone from Indianapolis? I can’t think of anything other than “Hoosier”. As I noted in that pecha kucha presentation, Indianapolis is culturally Hoosier. There is not a huge cultural gulf between the city and the rest of the state. I happen to think that’s a good thing. However, the Indiana association does predominantly conjure rural images such as flat farmland, tractors, small towns, etc. that are clearly not what a city like Indianapolis is about. So I do believe city needs to add a layer of unique civic identity on top of the existing stack (Hoosier, Midwesterner, American, etc). While Indianapolis should by no means try to declare independence from Indiana, it does need to strengthen its own brand.
On the second point, I’ve long noted that while other Midwestern cities are trying to turn around decline, and have to come to terms with their diminished relative standing in the nation, Indy’s profile (and that of some other places like Columbus, Ohio) is on the increase. Indianapolis has never been a larger, more important, more influential player in the nation and world that it is today. Is it in the truly big leagues yet? No, but it is at its highest level ever and is still on the way up. As it continues that upward trajectory, it will start to get more press. For example, the Colts have been incredibly instrumental in bringing Indy to the fore in the public imagination. So assuming they keep it up (and hopefully win a few more Superbowls!), the Colts (and potentially just the Colts blue color), could become more associated with Indy. Raising the city’s profile is a slow process, but the trend lines are positive here.
Lastly, let’s face it, Indy is carrying around a chip on its shoulder about being a “cow town” sort of place. It is desperate to prove its big city bona fides and have people see it as a real big city. That’s why there is so much focus on things like swanky restaurants, shops, pro sports, light rail, etc. Indy is desperate to be perceived as having the trappings of a “real” big city and be taken seriously by the Chicago’s and New York’s of this world. I think this leads to embarrassment about the things the city is associated with and a desire on the part of some to downplay its strongest brand assets.
The best example of this is auto racing. Indianapolis and the 500 Mile Race are basically synonymous around the world. Yet the city does not fully champion it as core to its modern identity. One, because it doesn’t want to be viewed as a one trick pony, which isn’t necessary a bad thing. It sees itself as being more than a one event town and is eager to showcase the new. Two, because in the US auto racing is considered déclassé by the urban elite, and the brand image of the typical Indy car or NASCAR race fan isn’t something the city really wants to portray itself as being all about. Similarly for all the traditional Hoosier attributes such as pork tenderloin sandwiches.
This is typical behavior for all human beings. When we were little kids, we wanted to emulate the older kids. When we were freshman, we were desperate to be cool like the upperclassman. As we mature through the various stages of life, we often come to view the things we left behind with embarrassment, as “little kids stuff”. We go New York and see fashionable people strutting through the streets and we feel inadequate. I understand completely the impulse behind this. But as we fully mature, we settle into our skin and become comfortable with who we are and confident about ourselves. We’re able to resist peer pressure a little better.
I personally try to live by the credo of what I call the “random bastard” theory. That is, why should I care what some random bastard on the street thinks of me? There was a Dr. Pepper commercial a while back that showed a guy happily doing all sorts of embarrassing things for his girlfriend: buying tampons, folding her underwear at the laundromat, holding the clothes she wants to try on at the boutique. The only thing he’s not willing to do is share his Dr. Pepper. We all have a good laugh at this, but I think it illustrates the way that we all as human beings care very much what even random strangers might think, even about activities that are perfectly normal and rational. The first time I took the Eurostar train to Paris, I walked out into the Gare du Nord desperate to look like I knew exactly where the cab stand was. There’s nothing I hate more than looking like I don’t know what I’m doing in public, and especially in Paris I wanted very much to look like I was a sophisticated regular, not a doofus American tourist who’d never set foot in that station before. But what could be more natural than having never been in a particular train station or airport before? It’s a perfectly normal thing. So I wandered around like an idiot tourist for a while and finally found the cab stand. I try to always remember that I shouldn’t spend any time worrying about what those random bastards on the street think. I don’t always succeed, but I do try.
I think there’s a similar process at work in cities. As Indy (and most places) start to move up in the ranks, they want to be taken seriously by the upperclassmen. But the cities that are truly successful and truly maturing have moved beyond imitation of what others deem cool. They have the confidence to boldly chart their own path to the future, and to find their own unique success. Cities, very successful ones, as diverse as Austin, Las Vegas, Portland, and Charleston, SC. have figured this out.
When it comes to brand image, having all those big city trappings ultimately amounts to nothing. Rather, I argue that it is those truly organic local items that are the key to building a future brand image. Look at almost any corporate rebranding campaign. The first thing the company does it try to go back through its history and understand its core essence, its “brand DNA” to use an overworked term. Even the hippest of companies such as fashion houses do this, mining their archives for inspiration for future collections. That’s what Indianapolis needs to do in order to understand where it is and where it should go. Indy can tack on pro sports teams and light rail lines till the cows come home, so to speak, but that provides nothing distinct for anyone to latch onto. And whether things like auto racing and pork tenderloins are good or bad is often purely a matter of attitude and perception.
Consider a few examples. Smoking is considered a lower class activity in America these days. Yet in France they smoke like chimneys and everyone thinks it is cool. Why’s that? People talk about Hoosiers chowing down on deep fried tenderloins and the like as a sign of provincial unsophistication and poor eating habits, then go to Belgium and go gaga over french fries in a greasy paper cone slathered in mayo. I fail to see the big difference. Nobody thinks Chicago hot dogs, Philly cheese steaks, or NYC pizza are bad, despite how fattening and horrible for you they are. They are all sources of pride to their communities. Heck, in Europe they even decided auto racing (Formula 1) was cool and something rich, sophisticated people should be into.
What Indy needs to do create that brand image is to stop being embarrassed at what it is and start showing a little pride and swagger about it. What could be more hillbilly than ten gallon hats and the whole Texas schtick? Yet they are perhaps the most proud people of what they are of any state – and it has worked well for them. Indy seems embarrassed of anything that has a
whiff of Southern, blue collar, or rural influence, but the fastest growing cities in America are in the South, where they are proud of their heritage. Why can’t Indy show the same pride and swagger? I’m not talking about the naive boosterism that is so prominent in some circles. That really is embarrasssing. But rather about setting a lofty goal and ambition, based clearly in the local culture. A good mixture of high ambition, bravado, and audacity, all in a local wrapper.
I think a lot of the places of the South are a good model to follow. For many years they were beaten down, economically depressed, with many national image stigmas. Yet they reinvigorated themselves through optimisim, embracing the best parts of their image while shedding the worst (creating this image of “the New South”) and having that swagger I mentioned.
I consider Atlanta as a great example. Indy and Atlanta were about the same size 50 years ago. Today, Atlanta is one of America’s largest, most booming cities. Back in the 80’s when their metro area reached the 2 million mark, civic leaders launched a bunch of balloons to celebrate. Can you imagine such a thing happening in Indy? It would probably be greeted as a sign of the apocalypse by many. When nobody gave them a chance, Atlanta said, “Let’s host the Olympics”. They believe they are destinted to be one of the top world cities. All too often, Indy just seems happy to be here, satisfied with its modest levels of outperformance versus the nation and a region that is suffering.
I just got back from Nashville, a city slightly smaller than Indy and only growing a bit faster, and there is a huge belief in their future as the next great city of the South. It is very much worth a visit to see how they are reinventing themselves, with much bigger plans and ambitions than Indy, even though I’d argue they have little to nothing on Indy and in fact are inferior in many ways. And of course they are building a lot of their identity around country and contemporary Christian music, more déclassé items among the urban elite. But what they’ve done is a put a modern spin on it with their glitzy “Nashvegas” approach. I think it is well worth spending a long weekend in Nashville checking out the vibe in the town.
I believe a successful brand repositioning for a city will probably rely heavily on creating the new brand from the essence of the old, as well as creating a new level of ambition that is combined with an optimistic world view. The first part gives people something they can relate to. The second gives them something to believe in and inspire them. I think this is something that Indy needs to do. It needs to take the best of its existing Hoosier and Midwest identity, get rid of the non-core negative aspects of it, and set forth a new ambition and positive vision for the city and what it can achieve.
So, yes, Indy’s identity is a bit weak today, but I believe the ingrediants are there to really create something. Perhaps one day Indianapolis could even be “the Capital of the New Midwest”. Ok, Chicago will always be the capital of the Midwest, but it is a complete outlier and so different from other places that you can almost consider it its own standalone region – it seems to be doing its best to declare independence from the Midwest in its bid to join the league of world cities. The lessons of Chicago are for the most part not applicable to other Midwestern cities. This leaves room for Indy to take the lead in creating a new identity amongst the real Midwest, and redefining the region for the 21st century. Indianapolis, along with cities like Columbus and Kansas City, offer a real Midwestern model of success, one that can produce viable lessons for how other parts of the Midwest can reinvent themselves to be successful.
What would this involve?
- Self-conciously define and embrace the “New Midwest” identity, keeping the best of the past and the present, while having the courage to change the things that need it for the future. Change is always a hard sell in Indiana, but if it is not a wholesale throwing out of the current identity, but more of a reshaping, it is probably a lot easier to pull off.
- Things to keep and build an identity around for the city are auto racing (yes, keep it front and center), the Colts, the small city feel, pork tenderloin sandwiches, the “good, solid, reliable people” ethic, basketball mania, highway orientation (“the Crossroads of America”), patriotism, etc. Think about the imagery the city, the state, the region conjures up. As I noted in my HARMONI review, some of these are tractors in the field, lunch pails and smokestacks, fierce competition on the sports field, airplane engines, big rigs, a researcher’s white lab coat, war memorials, and so on. These are powerful, masculine images. Chicago took more or less those same ingrediants and called itself “the City of Big Shoulders”, an image it is now consciously abandoning (a decision I feel is a terrible one, incidentally). There’s something similar there for Indy, both in terms of expressing what the place has to offer, and as inspiration for a design language and design identity for the city.
- Here’s my favorite example of taking what is and making it what could be. Hoosiers have a sort of contrarian, even ornery attitude towards the world. Indiana stood virtually alone on DST for the longest time, for example. But this is exactly what I advocate – having the courage to go your own way and not follow the lemmings. In a world where everyone else is following the pack, Indianapolis (and perhaps Indiana) dare to be different. The key is to start applying that attitude towards shaping the future, instead of digging in about the past (e.g., DST). The exact same attitude that so many view as a weakness is in fact, when used properly, a huge strength. This is what I mean by forging the “New Midwest”.
- Figure out how to leave behind some of the more negative aspects of the current brand image such as environmental degradation, racism, and, for the city itself, some of the more overtly rural imagery inappropriate to an urban envirnoment. For example, I’ve argued before that the black community of Indianapolis should be front and center as one of the central growth pillars for the central city, and represents one of the great untapped resources of the city. Virtually no other cities have blacks as one of their target markets. This leaves a big opportunity for Indy to build on its rich black heritage to create an image of one of America’s great cities for blacks. Incidentally, this was one of the things that has been absolutely critical to Atlanta’s success (“the city too busy to hate”).
- Be optimistic about the future, and set high goals and ambitions for the city. There are places in the Midwest that deserve to feel gloomy. Detroit, for example. Plenty of places are in bad shape. While Indy is not immune to the current economy or the forces of globalization to be sure, it is actually beating not just the Midwest but the nation at large in things like population growth, percentage of residents with a college degree, new high tech jobs, etc. I personally believe that Indy is a city with huge future potential. It’s not the only Midwest place like that to be sure. But it belongs in the top tier of places, no doubt.
- Embrace getting bigger and boosting national and international prominence. This alone will create better brand recognition among the public at large. So many people in this day and age are anti-growth. They cite all the perceived negatives of it. But growth is good. Growth is what provides opporunities for people and what ultimately provides the scale necessary to support those urban amenities like rail transit that so many people want. Those types of things take people and wealth to support them, and growth is how you get it.
These are just some ideas. I had intended to let this bake more and think harder about how to extract the current brand image and how specifically to update it and strategies for implementation. Instead, I decided to throw them out there and let the world collaborate on it with me. This is a complex, difficult matter, not one with simple answers. And ultimately, a culture and vision of a place grow organically out of the people who live there. Good leaders can point the way, but it can’t be imposed top down.
Please share your thoughts in the comments section.
Taking up on the Indy 500: 500 reasons to like Indy, 500 faces of Indy, it’s 5:00 in Indy, where are you headed?, etc.
At one point, Indy’s “brand” was the capitol in the forest. It was a wilderness outpost, then a rowdy frontier town, a Civil War staging center, then “respectability” took over in the late 19th century and it’s been downhill ever since.
(OK, that’s a bit harsh, because Indy did at one time feature on the cultural map tho’ folks like Theodore Dreiser, Marguerite Young. Kurt Vonnegut and others had to leave in order to be taken seriously as artists. Why not take up the banner for the Arts and make Indy a capitol of the Arts and use the creative class to help rejuvenate our tarnished reputation?)
Indy’s location was selected by a committee and it’ll take more than a committee to fix the mess. The confluence of the White River & Fall Creek is not as inspiring, say, as Lake Michigan or the Detroit River but there’s no reason we couldn’t start this process by looking at the natural resources in the area. Truly, that’s what makes Indy unique – a major metropolitan area where it is still possible to see corn fields within 20-30 mins driving time.
So let’s embrace the agricultural heritage. Stop turning arable land into strip malls & building humdrum starter castle residential areas.
Put that arable land to good use growing local food for local use with the idea of the Hoosier State becoming independent of importing basic food stuffs. (Why in the world should we eat a tomato in July that’s from Mexico or Tennessee?)
Also, take the dismal standing of Indy as one of the most polluted metro areas (in one of the most polluted states – 49th out of 50 according to Forbes Magazine) and get some of those hi-tech whiz kids to collaborate with the deep wisdom embedded in rural grandpas/grandmas to come up with bio-remediation techniques that rejuvenate soil, air and water while minimizing waste?
If Indy wants to become well known, why not as an environmental success story?
As for tenderloins let’s get rid of massive Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations and the attendant pollution and environmental degredation.
Indy hosts one of the country’s premier state fairs and we should turn the fairgrounds into a model of sustainability.
We should plant a million trees in Marion County before the end of the decade and get IPL to bury unsightly power lines (the money they’d save in not having to trim i.e. butcher, trees would be a p.r. boon) and instead of making green power the option, make it the default, and charge extra if you want to get electricity from coal-fired power plants.
Indy could be HQ not just for hi-tech but for appropriate tech that creates jobs, gives young people long term career opportunities and offers environmental benefits such as reduced air and water pollution, more greenspace and healthier citizens. Working with the Green Building Council’s LEED program, Indy could establish itself as the Green Leader of the Midwest and become know as a modern-day success story instead of an example of neglect, decline and decay.
I think you make a lot of good points in your essay. Here are a couple of thoughts:
1. I like your idea of emphasizing midwestern food like the pork tenderloin. As you suggest, it shows a certain amount of confidence that people embrace their local “heritage foods,” whether it be barbeque in the south, cincinnati chili, chicago hot dogs, derby pie, scrapple, burgoo, etc. Moreover, visitors are often eager to try local delicacies…so it’s good to have some. Perhaps we (or the Indiana pork producers) should try to brand the tenderloin as the “Indiana Tenderloin” or Indiana Tenderloin sandwich.
2. I think that sports can play an important role in giving a city exposure and even showing that a city is a “big league” city – but I don’t think that sports, by themselves, are very good at building a city’s identity – they simply don’t reflect anything very meaningful about the city. However, again, they are important because they allow the city to showcase to others the city’s identity.
3. What really does set Indianapolis apart from larger cities is that it is very easy to do a lot of things that are more complicated to do in larger cities. We walk to BR village for to find a place to eat (I live in BR). Or we bike 3 miles to Target on the Monon. Or we drive 10 minutes to go to the children’s museum. Or we go to Symphony on the Prairie (which, while having a much smaller lineup than Ravinia, is a much more convivial place to spend an evening). Or we bike down to the IMA.
It’s not that you can’t do these (or similar) activities in Chicago – it’s that they are much farther away and it takes a lot of time, typically, to do them. So you are, I think, on the right track with your “Big city with the small town feel,” motto. But I don’t think that’s quite the right motto for at least 3 reasons: (1) “small town” is not necessarily positive; (2) Indy doesn’t really have a small town feel; and (3) calling ourselves a big city suggests that we aren’t really, but would like to be (cf. “World Class City”).
I don’t have a great alternative slogan – maybe something like “Indianapolis – the livable city” – at any rate, something that emphasizes that doing things in Indy won’t require a 3 hour round trip drive. (It’s too bad “The Big Easy” is already taken (and I don’t think “The Little Easy” is what we want.)
Peter, I agree with a lot of what you say. The great thing about downtown Indy is how quickly you can get to everything. You can literally walk from White River to Mass Ave or Conseco in 20 minutes. Or from Lucas Oil to the circle or the War memorial in the same amount of time.
This brings me to another point, and that is the abundance of our war memorials and lesser-known museums that too few people are aware of. I recently went to the museum at the War Memorial and was surprised by how large it was. It was also quite good and didn’t feel cheesey or cheap. I remember thinking, why is this such a secret? This is something that people should flock to. Is it just a poor advertising campaign (or lack thereof)? I don’t really know. Also, the civil war museum under the monument is pretty good as well (although much smaller).
I just wish the city could do a better job at promoting these sites. We have great attractions already that for whatever reason we decide to keep a secret. I’m sure others have had similar thoughts.
I couldn’t help but crack up reading your post. I’m involved in Indianapolis tourism and we recently underwent a citywide branding initiative. The early winner in the rebranding process was “The New Midwest,” but over time many began to feel that the term “Midwest” conjured up a negative image (farm fields, tenderloins…ironically the very things you suggest we embrace).
We ended up with “So Easy To Do So Much” as we constantly hear from visitors how easy it is to go from hotels to attractions, sports, convention center, etc. The design of this city is what makes it great for those who travel here. There is little need for cabs to get around the heart of downtown. From a resident standpoint this also speaks to the low price of property and overall cost of living.
There was plenty of talk of auto racing and the like but there was a consensus that building a brand around a race that takes place once a year limited our year-round appeal as a destination. I’ve also heard you tout “NapTown” in the past, which I love, but the older generation cannot stand due to it’s original meaning.
All interesting and worthy of discussion as we continue to define our city for the future. Great post and I always look forward to your take on things.
“City in Motion”–alludes to our racing heritage, but not too obviously or exclusively; it also relates to two of our most recent and defining successes–the Monon Trail and Cultural Trail. More broadly, it connotes enthusiasm and optimism–two qualities I’ve always found particularly common among our Hoosier brethren.
“So easy to do so much” isn’t a brand, it’s a slogan.
Ignoring “the race” because it only happens once a year is incredibly shortsighted. It’s the ONE thing that attaches to Indianapolis in most people’s minds. Also, there are THREE racing events per year at the Speedway, with an economic impact equal to several Super Bowls annually.
Ignoring RACING is shortsighted. Indianapolis is one of two US centers of the racing industry. (Charlotte is the other.) Precisely because we have motorsports companies and teams here already, we can attract more.
When I moved to Indianapolis (now a generation ago) knowing only that there’s a racetrack west of downtown, people told me that this is a “big city with a small town feel” and “easy to get around”. Since they’re still true today, we should capitalize on those value propositions.
I would love to agree with you on the racing front, but until Speedway development accelerates and turns that area into a year-round destination it doesn’t make sense. Right now racing draws average people here three days a year and the rest of the year only caters to race enthusiasts who want to tour the museum. If they reworked that museum to be and interactive race experience rather than just a showcase for vintage vehicles it would draw crowds 365 days a year. Opening up team headquarters and creating a sense of place in Speedway would all help take racing from a three-day affair to a something bigger. In the meantime, we can’t talk racing in December and expect most people to care.
In the case of Nashville or Austin, music is always accessible so they push the concept of a music-hub all year. While there is no denying the economic impact of the races and their benefit to our community you also have to put yourself in the shoes of an outsider and ask if that is going to have appeal out of season.
There have been some very good comments offered in these posts. My thought is the “promise” has to be one part reality driven (who you really are) and one part aspirational (who you want to become). The aspirational part is what gets people excited and moving. If the aspirations are too low (and they are in most planning projects), then the drive to implement ideas will not be sustained.
As you think about ideas, I suggest using a framework that focuses on history, geography, climate and culture (one could include economics as well, but I think it’s infused into each the four dimensions of the framework). There are likely opportunities within each dimension that would differentiate Indy (motor sports is one) from other Midwestern cities. Take climate for example. How many Midwestern cities are really built to accommodate the Midwest’s extreme seasons? It basically sucks to be a pedestrian in frostbelt cities between November and April. Forget starchitects and glam projects. The first Midwestern city to build an attractive public realm that protects visitors from the harsh elements of nature will distinguish itself immediately. Northern European cities do this exceptionally well. New Orleans’ urban streets have balconies and arcades to protect pedestrians from downpours and the direct sun. This is just one example of an approach that could differentiate Indianapolis functionally and visually.
I suggest not worrying too much about a slogan or a way to capture the entire city in one phrase at this point. Find the aspirational uses and the logos and slogans will be easy. Remember, people don’t visit Paris because it’s easy to drive around in and find a parking spot. They go for culture, beauty, romance and excitement. The city connects with people at every sensory level. Indanapolis isn’t Paris, of course, but the city should think big. No other Midwestern city other than Chicago seems to be doing that right now.
“The first Midwestern city to build an attractive public realm that protects visitors from the harsh elements of nature will distinguish itself immediately.”
Love that idea.
I think Minneapolis has a well-developed “gerbil tube” system.
But I also think their attitude is, hey, we’re in the Frozen North, deal with it. A unique selling proposition, indeed. They can do that; they’re the northernmost major city in the US (where there’s an actual winter).
I argue that a brand isn’t a marketing campaign. A brand is what you are all about as a person, a company, a city. It’s your values, your aspiration, the perceptions other people have, etc. The core essence of a place. Something like the “New Midwest” isn’t a tag line, it’s a mindset.
I certainly think there’s something to the idea of using agriculture. Indiana should own local and sustainable agriculture. No, industrial farming is not going away any time soon, in Indiana or in California for that matter. But there’s no reason Indiana can’t stake its claim to local, organic, sustainable agriculture. This is what I mean by tweaking. It takes something that’s already here, and updates it.
The State Fair idea is a great one, though it is more a program than a brand.
Peter, for sports generally I agree with you. Though I think what Indy did with its “amateur sports capital” strategy was brilliant. Where I disagree is with motorsports. Indy definitely is auto racing. Anything that attempts to downplay that is a mistake in my view.
indyjrob, you’re job is to market the city for tourism. So that’s a different thing than establishing a brand that can help shape the city’s future, attract new businesses and residents, etc. Tourism and the external marketing campaign is part of the game, but only a part.
It is too bad that you threw out the New Midwest idea. I’m sorry that people are so willing to downplay the city and state’s legitimate heritage in order to try to appeal to outsiders. I ultimately think that is not a winning strategy. It’s very odd. Hoosiers wallow in nostalgia in the places they shouldn’t, then reject their own heritage when they should embrace it.
“So Easy to Do So Much” is, if you don’t mind my saying so, not a very strong ad slogan. It says nothing really about the city. It’s also an undifferentiated value proposition because I’d bet if you went to talk to people in Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, KC, etc. they’d all tell you the same thing. Dittos for “big city with the small town feel.” It’s not that these things aren’t true, but they are commodity statements that don’t reflect anything that specific to the locale.
anon 1:22, that’s a fantastic post. I agree completely. Find something based in reality, and but aspirational as well.
As for the weather, again, I think you’re onto something. The gerbil tube concept is a failure though, thunder. Perhaps it works for Minneapolis because of the extremes, but they are urban planning disasters and also are about walling you off from the climate as opposed to creatively engaging with it as in the New Orleans examples. Our weather is what it is. How to we exploit it for its good sides while creatively mitigating the downsides? One thing Minneapolis really did was go ga-ga for winter sports.
Chicago is thinking big, but worldwide they are a prisoner of their brand image as the home of Al Capone and gangsters. As any random person on the street in a foreign country what they think of Chicago and the answer is likely to involve making gun pantomimes with their hands and saying, “Bang! Bang!”
Out of curiosity, would you please elaborate on how Nashville is “inferior to Indianapolis in many ways?” I ask as a Indinapolis metro resident who has observed that Nashville appears to have the most vibrant downtown between the coasts, outside of the windy city. Obviously, that’s not the only marker, but compare museums, skylines, office occupany, cultural vibrancy, nightlife, the Cumberland with the canal and the Parthenon with any number of unsightly war memorials.
Also, without a building boom and maybe another Fortune 500 headquarters in the urban core, I fail to see how Indianapolis would have any brand promise. The lack of density will keep it third-rate, Toledo mixed with Omaha. Neighbors like Cincinnati, Louisville and St. Louis feel like cities, while even downtown Indy feels like a suburb. For the love of all that’s holy, you have suburban-style homes and fast-food franchises smack dab downtown. You can spend millions marketing Mass Ave., but you can’t conceal that there’s little there. Does any sane person believe that Broad Ripple remotely compares to the Highlands in Louisville? Follow Dubai’s lead and build, then build a brand.
As an addendum, to folks outside Indiana, naptown is little more than a place to watch a race or to have a convention on the cheap. There’s a mall downtown, and there’s already a mall or two in the suburb of most potential out-of-state tourists, who are of course immune to the regional partisanship of pro sports attractions in the (concentric) circle (s of sprawl) city.
Since we’re already squandering tax dollars on Lucas Oil Boondoggle, we should invest in a gratuitous skyscraper-scale monument a la the Space Needle, possibly a giant cornstalk or corndog that bellows “New Midwest.”
The posts on this topic have been very thoughtful and some are quite provacative.
Like other cities that do not have compelling natural resources (lakes, mountains, oceans, big rivers) or great weather 365 days a year, Indianapolis has to try harder in other areas. That’s something that leadership in big to mid-sized cities around the Midwest do not seem to understand. They have to have better jobs, more attractive commercial districts, more unique cultural destinations, safer neighborhoods for children and families, higher quality public transit options, better schools and healthier environments.
I think a two-pronged strategy to address core services (anything related to food, shelter, clothing, health, safety, transportation, education/jobs) and “quality of life” amenities” (the cultural and recreational amenities that really distinguish one place from another) is needed.
I’m not sure where the city would rate with core service benchmarks of othe peer cities, but they should find out and fix any problems by whatever means necessary, especially the schools and public safety.
The most challenging issue for me is jobs. Is there an industry or niche that Indy can seize and claim as their own similar to what happened in Silicon Valley or Seattle with high tech? Omaha has insurance, St. Louis has animal science and some biotech (Monsanto and others)… not sure if many other Midwestern cities can clearly stake a claim to a particular industry or industries. Seems like a window of opportunity for Indianapolis if leadership can be engaged to act.
Regarding amenities, the city is on the right track with programs like the Cultural Trail and locating important cultural amenities in and around downtown (although I think they initially focused too much on the west side early on – better to do like Jane Jacobs said and spread important cultural institutions around to serve as anchors for districts and neighborhoods).
Indy certainly has continue cleaning up and maximizing the potential benefits of the White River, Fall Creek and the canals. Getting a first class multi-modal trail system in place will separate them from othe major cities aroudn the country, but only for a while.
I’m not a racing enthusiast, but I think the motor sports theme is very important. I recall the Harley Davidson show at Chicago’s Field Museum was a phenominal success a few years back. Elites like groovy cars as much as blue collar types. Indy should have first rate museum that features both historical auto design development and prototype cars of the future. I think it would be a year round destination for car enthusiasts from around the world if it’s done right. In fact, Indy could distinguish itself by becoming the country’s leader in transportation/public transportation innovation, similar to Curitaba, Brazil. I can’t think of a better way to encourage investor confidence in downtown and the neighborhoods immediately around it.
Another place to look for differentiating factors are in the signature programs of Purdue, I.U. and I.U.P.U. I. I’m not up to date on what they are, but Indianapolis should have strong commercial connections to them.
I’m not sure if that’s compelling enough to separate Indianapolis from the pack, but it would be a good start.
One other thought. As I watch bloated and corrupt Chicago/Cook County bureacracies tax themselves into oblivion, I see a window of opportunity opening for a progressive, well-run municipal government to stake a claim as THE Midwestern place to locate a business, provided that a critical mass of talent can be made available. A governament that can hold the line on taxes AND deliver a high level of essential core services will really stand out right now. This is a project in which Purdue and I.U. play key roles (The “Talent and Taxes Program”). Developing a reputation as the smartest place to do busines in the Midwest would be a very good reputation indeed.
I forgot to mention in my post above that the concept of creating a proprietary Indiana brand of organic food was dead on. In fact, I can’t believe that Indiana (or one of Midwest’s other great grain / livestock states) has not yet created and heavily promoted an organic label that touts its home state. Perhaps that reflects the grip that big time agribiz has on innovative agricultural practics, product development and marketing. Regardless, imagine the impact that an “Organic Indiana” label on various food products might have in the global. markeplace.
This is a prime example of something the Midwest could do to rapidly capture and own a unique market niche that would also burnish its collective image globally.
I love the “Toledo and Omaha” comparisons by someone who is a “metro Indy” resident. Hmmmm…smells of our old SSC friend “Gych.”
anon 8:34, we have two key industries in Indianapolis where economic development time and effort is spent: biotechnology, and racing.
There was just a news report in the past week or so that Central Indiana is ranked fairly high as a biotech center nationally.
Racing is a high-tech industry also. Even though some of the jobs are manual and don’t require formal education, a racing engine is a high-technology wonder. As are aerodynamic engineering of car bodies, wind-tunnel operations and development of racing suspensions, fire suits and helmets. Focusing on the three races a year in Indianapolis totally ignores the race teams and suppliers who have 365-day business centers here.
Urbanophile, I agree that gerbil tubes CAN be a failure. I wasn’t very clear in pointing out that I generally share your attitude; gerbil-tube systems are the initial response in northern cities to the Chamber of Commerce saying “we can’t change the weather, we have to DO something, though”. I think in certain circumstances (such as connecting convention hotels to the convention center), they can be a good idea. Otherwise, they do kill street-level retail.
Minneapolis definitely embraces its role and markets itself as the gateway to the Frozen North. Winter and outdoor sports are a big part of life there: snowmobiling, hunting, ice-fishing.
Toledo, though dying, has more Fortune 500 headquarters than Indinapolis, a better utilized river, a nearby great lake, a more prestigious art museum and a much better newspaper.
It’s not that unreasonable a comparison to anyone outside of Indiana. Unigov artificially inflated Indy’s population when Marion County is the 55th most populous county in the country and geographically larger than Chicago.
That being said, “City in Motion” is brilliant branding, and Indy should build on its strengths. Existing marketing efforts try to abracadabra something out of nothing–i.e. “Indiana Avenue Cultural District.” Madame Walker is a venerable institution, but it’s not a cultural district unto itself by any means.
The “Unigov Inflation” argument might have been valid in 1980, but not in 2008. Columbus, without Unigov, has grown physically to about the size of Indianapolis-Marion County…maybe bigger. Indianapolis proper (Marion County) is now just about half of the metro area population….it’s not as if we have NO suburbs or edge cities with distinct identities.
Indirectly, your post points out the reason to grow a city’s boundaries. The alternative is Toledo’s fate: shrink.
Growth is better. You can’t shrink your way to prosperity.
I assume anon 4:01, 9:04, and 9:26 are the same person.
It is a shame you take such a negativistic view. Indianapolis has its problems and challenges to be sure – many of them. They definitely need to be addressed and faced head on, not hidden or glossed over with spin and home cooked statistics.
But there is a lot of positive too. And what’s more, beyond just the positive things that I would say outweigh the negative, the city is well positioned for the future. There is actually a lot to be optimistic about, even for a realist. I’m sorry you aren’t willing to engage on that.
Anon 4:01pm…please. You yourself completely negated your own “opinion” in your first three words: “Toledo, though dying.” That says it all.
Sure, Toledo uses its river…it is navigable. White River isn’t. There maybe more Fortune 500’s (I don’t know, don’t care), but that certainly isn’t helping them from “dying.”
The Arts/Cultural ammenities in one city versus another is subjective unless discussing the truely “World-Class” cities.
Newspapers…when was the last time you heard someone say “Wow, Toledo must be a great place, I really like their newspaper?”
To state that DT Indy is nothing more than Toledo or Omaha is so laughable. No knock to those cities, but they are in no way, shape, or form close to the vitality, number of residents, number of workers, or value of construction that is going on in Indianapolis. Toss in the cities that you even state are more dense and vibrant (Louisville and Cincy) and you still look foolish. Sure, they are old river cities with a collection of structures that were never found in Indy, but I and most around these blog circles, would gladly take the “third-rate, suburban downtown Indianapolis” over either of those. Again, DT Indy has much more U/C than either, tons more retail, hotels (maybe even with Cincy on this) and residential options and screams “Capitol City.” DT Indy is far from suburban. Could I identify some poorly planned projects? Certainly…in EVERY midwest city.
None of the Cities you listed could pull-off a SuperBowl in their respective downtowns…NONE. Even if we moved LOS to any of them.
Love the article in the Star about expanding Indygo. Thanks for the directing me to it.
When will people realize that all transportation is subsidized. How do they think all the roads get built?
I could not agree more with some of the people in the Star that commented that the people in Hamilton County should shut up about thier transportation issues.
They have the “choice” to live anywhere they want. If you don’t like you drive to work then MOVE!
Hamilton County has done nothing to develop a transit system for themselves (unlike Johnson County whic did years ago), but now they want rail first. What is that?
Ballard is right on when he states that all those people in Fishers, Noblesville and Carmel knew that traffic was a mess when the moved there.
I say if we are going to develop a better mass transit systems. Develop in areas that all ready support mass transit first.
Yes it is pretty clear that4:01, 9:04, and 9:26 is the same person.
I seriously doubt that “millions”have been spent promoting Mass Ave. I think Mass Ave. represents itself pretty well.
It is an Avenue that was born of the gay community of Indianapolis and has become a local hot spot of popular restaurants and pubs with a few unigue shops with some theatre. It is now attracting people to live there. Maybe that is why you have a perception that “millions” have been spent promiting it. In fact the truth is there have been “millions” invested in condos and the before mentioned businesses.
To put Indy in the same context as Toldeo and Omaha is just not thinking right. I would place Indy’s downtown way over certainly Louisville, Cincy and Columbus. Am I really suppose to take things like 4th Street Live in Louisville as downtown vibrancy? (waits for arrows heading his way) The downtown in Columbus is a ghost town by 8:00. Come on.
For some reason the poster is just an Indy hater.
As an experiment, rattle off 10 things you associate with Florida.
Did its most populous city, Jacksonville, even make the list?
Bulked up by annexation, the sleepy sprawl-burg Jacksonville, a transportation hub, has experienced modest growth in recent years and hosted a Super Bowl, neither of which propelled it into the upper echelons of the Houstons, Seattles and Chicagos of the world. Visitors are not left with much of an impression, because it seems so perfunctory.
To avoid being a generic spawlopolis, heritage should be embraced as a way to differentiate the Indianapolis brand. But such an approach worries me because Indy needs a radical shift in mindset if it ever aspires to be taken seriously or evolve beyond its largely 19th-century economy. Whole new attitudes about density, culture and transportation are direly needed.
Frankly, and polemically to get the point across, you’re deluding yourself if you don’t realize that people outside the Midwest (and many Hoosier college grads) lump Indy in with Toledo, Des Moines, etcetera. Have you ever once heard anyone outside of Indianapolis say that the monument circle is “one of the great urban spaces in North America?” Such boosterism is counter-productive when it breeds complacency. Any remotely ambitious projects, like the Marquis Tower, never seem to get off the ground, while NIMBYist Hoosier folk fight anything urban in their city.
Also, Fourth Street Live is patently ridiculous.
How about: Indianapolis= Fast Company
Works with racing
Works with sports
Works with business
CoryW (cwilson758) said…
“Toss in the cities that you even state are more dense and vibrant (Louisville and Cincy) and you still look foolish. Sure, they are old river cities with a collection of structures that were never found in Indy, but I and most around these blog circles, would gladly take the “third-rate, suburban downtown Indianapolis” over either of those. Again, DT Indy has much more U/C than either, tons more retail, hotels (maybe even with Cincy on this) and residential options and screams “Capitol City.” DT Indy is far from suburban. Could I identify some poorly planned projects? Certainly…in EVERY midwest city.
None of the Cities you listed could pull-off a SuperBowl in their respective downtowns…NONE. Even if we moved LOS to any of them.”
Not taking up for ANON, but just adding some facts:
* Louisville downtown projects/announced/under construction approaches $2B; how much will be built(and when) in this economy is unknow – but same would apply everywhere
* Indy likely exceeds Cinci with retail and hotels; exceeds Louisville with retail…on par with hotels; Louisville DT hotels exceeds Cinci
* Louisville could certainly host a Super Bowl…it hosts the Ky Derby every year.
ANON: 4th St Live may not live up to your standards…but to sugest it is ‘patently ridiculous’ ignores the fact that it is ‘patently and profitably successful’
“None of the Cities you listed could pull-off a SuperBowl in their respective downtowns…NONE. Even if we moved LOS to any of them.”
Stadiums don’t take up huge swathes of downtowns in most cities, except where geographically logical, such as in Cincy. Having a football field with less seating capacity than some Big 10 stadiums where office towers and midrises should logically be doesn’t convey prosperity.
Why do IKEA, Bass Pro Shops, California Pizza Kitchen, etcetera locate in the river cities long before they look in central Indaia?
Fast Company is strong, with approriate dynamism, connotations and catchiness. However, there’s the magazine.
Very interesting discussion, Aaron. Before I blog I would like to toss a sincere apology to all of my friends in the ‘branding’ industry, many of whom (as you know) wholeheartedly support Indy’s most creative forum – Pecha Kucha Indy. Here it goes: I am fully exhausted with tired, simplistic notions attempting to create ‘branding identities’ for products, lifestyles, cities, whatever can be capitalized upon.
The entire concept of branding seeks to convince a person to engage beyond their understanding of something (almost always in consumerism). My experience in cities is that the best, most vernacular, most unique and interesting things that they have to offer are not the items targeted in brand identity campaigns. Moreover, and undeniably so, American cities are becoming less unique by their location and civic features and only more unique and identifiable by the natural flux of their industry growth and cultural demographics.
By less unique I mean that certain milestones in a city’s growth/population typically bring certain amenities – new stadiums, or new franchises: we’ve got a Nordstrom.. why don’t we have an Ikea?; or a quantity of Starbucks per capita (now measurable by the quantity of Starbucks which will be closing soon due to weak revenues – an aside – I think one could chart true growth in a city by the least number of per capita Starbucks closings). But I digress.
Branding is a Curse! And it is a curse word in my vocabulary. Let’s examine Indianapolis’ sorrowful lust for brand identity based in the concept of the fieldhouse. Indianapolis has a fantastic bit of genuine history in Hinkle Fieldhouse – the largest basketball arena in the US from 1928-1950. Hinkle is steeped in history, and apparently the decisionmakers in our city have chosen to brand our sports facilities with the air of Hinkle history. So our relatively new basketball arena is a fieldhouse and now our retractable-roof Superbowl stadium is also a fieldhouse. Albeit completely out of scale and entirely divorced from the true romance and intimacy of Hinkle fieldhouse.
Consider the example of Olympic sports facilities built throughout the world. China’s new facilities are remarkable, progressive monuments to a changing culture. Barcelona built great modern facilities among one of the most beautiful historical cities in Europe. And in America – Atlanta – tired monuments to the recent past were built. This is the curse of the brand.
The assumption by decisionmakers is that you can regenerate(?), reflect(?), recreate(?), re-whatever the history by providing a mimicry of the shell in which it took place. It is this common and wrong assumption which is being spread like a virus by developers in their trite re-creations of historical main streets in neo-new-urbanist lifestyle centers.
Here me now: we will be tearing this crap down in thirty years. Or we will peeling and re-skinning the facades as we now often do. Funny, Glendale mall is being re-created in the spirit of Victor Gruen, the visionary who originally designed it, after many terrible and irreversible aberrations. How great was the HoosierDome? Who cares. Now let’s blow that old building up to make room for today’s short-sighted solutions.
Americans are caught in the deathly, environmentally poisonous, conceptually shallow, consumeristically temporal curse of the brand and the now, and it is all garbage. We attempt to define our tomorrow by the nostalgia of yesterday. We do not need to create brands, we need to create sophisticated, modern, human, progressive (not regressive) buildings and spaces in our cities. Until we start to do just that, we are trapped in the generational cycle of creating the built environment based on our perceived identity crisis – built solutions which will only be looked upon with disdain by the coming generation. And they will tear it down.
I’m convinced that we won’t begin to appreciate our built environment, our products and places of commerce, until we begin to run out of space, resources and patience for the salespersons who are trying to sell us all of this stuff, including the city of Indianapolis. Real cities reach a level of critical mass which raises them beyond the packagability of a ‘brand.’ What is the Brand of Chicago, New York, LA, or Houston? There is no brand. There are different balances of different cultures, there is the banal megalomania of franchised consumerism which is the same in every city, and there is a history which is either being preserved, rewritten or demolished. Attempting to capture the essence of a city in a brand is, in my opinion, an exercise in futility.
I hope my grandchildren read this.
Craig McCormick
Craig, thanks for the thoughtful post.
I must say, I must beg to differ on much of the starchitecture that has gone up in the world’s major cities of late. They are monuments to the self-indulgence of the architect and people with more money than taste in all too many instances.
However, I would certainly not say that one should indulge in retro-nostalgia. I wouldn’t advocate that either.
Rather, we need to be forward thinking without forgetting what are are all about as cities, as communities, as cities. Maybe brand isn’t the right word because it connotes marketing.
Whatever the case, it certainly isn’t an easy thing to understand or move forward on.
Thanks for your contribution.
Craig…I couldn’t agree more with you about “branding” issues. LOS is a great example of that. LOS is completely void of any context unless you know of Hinkle field house. Which, of course, most people that see it don’t and never will. Therefore it is a complete failure as a “branding” vehicle and as a building…it’s architecture is completely out of scale and it can not stand as an outstanding structure on it own.
It looks crazy and almost ready to be torn down already.
Marketing branding in it’s purest form almost always has a hook, a promise that in the end alway ends up as a empty hook or false promise.
On the other hand organic branding is the real deal. Indianapolis has one already….Circle City. It promises nothing. It says almost nothing but, there is a truth to it. There is a wonderful circle here with a great monument in it that is the center of the city that happens to have a very European feel to it. Enough. That is all there is. The fact that we try and brand the city any other way is pointless. If we build great structures they don’t all have to be built in a style that is a retro style of all the buildings, or at least some historic buildings to us that say this is who we are. It is a false promise.
Da Ville.
Louisville lost it’s largest convention to Indy due to Louisvill’e lack of hotel space. So I guess there goes the Louisville on par with Indy hotels idea.
I do believe that maybe Cincy could hold a Superbowl in it’s downtown. Louisville could not.
Indy is perfect fo a downtown Superbowl.
Anon 10:39
Yes, Louisville lost the FFA to IND citing lack of hotel space. Guess what, Louisville and IND are the finalists in the latest FFA beauty contest on where to hold that convention the over the next 5-7 years. Winner to be announced in October. Louisville has added rooms since the loss and has plans to add even more. It also has the new arena to add to the facilities to be used.
I do not know the total downtown rooms in either city but they are on par. Louisville has a very large convention business and larger facilities than is available anywhere else in the region outside of Chicago.
Louisville will not host a Super Bowl because it is not an NFL city…however it has the hotel rooms and ability/experience to host a large event such as the Super Bowl. The Ky Derby, Breeders Cup, PGA Championships, Ryder Cup and some of the largest tradeshows in the country attest to that fact.
Congrats to Indy on getting the Superbowl and winning the FFA convention from Louisville. Would not be surprising if Louisville wins the FFA back if for no other reason as a change of venue for the FFA; the fact Louisville is a finalist with Indy again attests to the fact that Louisville is on par with Indy in regards to ability/facilities/hotel rooms to handle very large conventions/events.
Cinci is a no show for these types of events, including the Super Bowl.
Having working in the field of branding for many years, I share Craig’s skepticism to certain degree. However, I think the term is largely misunderstood in the context of urban planning (the field in which I now practice).
In the urban planning / design worlds, branding mostly refers to slogans, taglines, logos and street banners used for marketing purposes. This is not branding… it’s labeling and packaging. Undertaking the exercise to understand and determine a brand promise is much more complex and thus difficult. Still, because the phase branding gets tossed around so lightly these days, I don’t blame anyone who is cynical about the use of the term.
Although I still advocate making the attempt to arrive at a collective brand promise, I’m not sure that it’s possible to do in a democracy. Maybe there are simply too many cooks in the kitchen. Napoleon III wasn’t soliciting public input when he directed Baron von Haussman to rip Paris apart and help create the city that we, for the most part, know and love today. Even in Burnham’s Chicago, many of the recommendations that were ultimately made had to be blessed by a relatively small business community that sponsored the plan, and even then they needed a 30-yr public relations campaign to accomplish a fraction of what was recommended.
And, yet, great things happen when someone has the guts to stick a stake in the ground and say, “this is where we want / need to go. This is what we aspire to be.”
Plans can change. Brands can change. But unless there is an attempt to undertake a collective mind meld regarding the future application of limited resources, efforts to improve a given city’s place in the competitive marketplace can easily go for naught. It’s a gestault thing. You can’t benefit if you don’t play.
In the end, creating a “brand promise” is simply an exercise in directing public and private resources to achieve the maximum benefit for civic stakeholders. Indeed, the results may meet the wrecking ball within a generation. But that’s no excuse for not trying.
Anon July 11, 2008 4:27 PM:
The use of "California Pizza Kitchen & Bass Pro Shop" in your posts completely negates any practical arguement you were making and nearly had me laughing out-loud. IKEA located in Cinci out of its location. Nothing more, nothing less. No Bass Pro shop in Indy because Indy was home to Galyan's and had the market cornered before being scooped up by Dick's. Now that Galyan's is gone, guess what? A Bass Pro Shop is on its way. California Pizza Kitchen had an Indy location YEARS before the "River Cities" at the Fashion Mall; however, that closed because the food sucks (you can buy CPK in grocery stores).
Your mention of college football (Big 10) vs Pro stadiums shows how little you know about the NFL. Maybe its the lack of any pro team in Louisville that gives you such a false sense of how pro stadiums/arenas work. Other than Dallas, you would find that MOST NFL stadiums seat less than Michigan or OSU. Further, the location of stadiums/arenas downtown (as evidence by Louisville's recent decision to do so, again, weakens your post) are seen as key economic stimualtors for downtowns in need of additional foot traffic. LOS is located in an old warehouse/industrial area of DT that has seen little investment over the years. That is ALL changing as we speak. And yes, Stadiums ALWAYS take up huge swaths of land, where ever they locate.
Da Ville-
Just because L'Ville hosts the Derby doens't mean it can handle a SuperBowl. Indy hosts the Indy 500 and the Brickyard, both larger draws than the Derby, and it has taken Indy how long to land the big game? Again, I am confident that Louisville is well behind Indy in terms of DT hotel rooms (and metro for that matter).
$2 Billion announced/planned is impressive, but Indy has 3 BILLION UNDER CONSTRUCTION downtown. Not planned, not announced, but actually U/C.
Sorry, my "my city is better than your city" rant is over.
If truth is to be know. Downtown Indy is not all the excited about the FFA convention. Generally they have not been overly welcomed with open arms. They are young kids with very little money to spend. Most of Downtown is geared toward a market with a higher expendable income.
Tis true ^^
I know a couple of people who work in the hospitality industry DT and they would be pleased to see FFA go to another city. The attendees are kids and they can’t buy alcohol, which is where most of the $$ that restaurants and bars make. It’s great that Indy can host the event and its nice that kids are getting a good impression of Indy that they can take into adult-hood, but overall, the downtown establishments would not lose sleep if they went elsewhere. The void would just be filled by another group.
coryw and anon:
where to start…
In regards to NFL v College Stadiums…I have been to many games at Club Level at Paul Brown and Club level at Papa Johns…not much difference and Papa Johns is expanding to 68000. Papa Johns is located where it is because that is wehre UoL is and happens to be next door to Churchill Downs…all of it less than 5 miles from Downtown.
Louisville has the rooms and facilities to handle the largets tradeshows/conventions in the nation. The Derby/Oaks is a Major/Super Bowl type event (larger). Super Bowl attendance might be 80,000 including the press. Derby attendance is 155,000.
Funny how FFA was won by Indy means Indy is better…now that it might lose it back to Louisville…seems Indy didn’t really want it. (I bet your visitors bureau and hotel operators etc don’t really believe that)
Louisville has plenty of hotel rooms downtown and in metro (with more on the way) to handle what it handles which is considerable.
In regards to downtown projects announced. Here is Louisville’s list
Museum Plaza $450M
UL Arena $400M
Center City $450M
Iron Quarters $125M
UPS Expansion at WorldPort $1B
those are just the big ones and do not include roads or bridges. let’s see Indy’s list….
I was quoting people that I know who work downtown during the FFA, not the ICVA. I am sure they don’t wan to lose to Louisville, but the service industry workers that I am referring to would be more than happy to have that group of CHILDREN leave and have the time occupied by ADULTS that buy alcohol. (I worked at Palomino in college and know all too well about liquor sales “padding” a bill). How mnany of those FFA attendees visited Palomino, St. Elmo’s, Scholar’s Inn, Agio, or stayed at the Conrad, Canterburry, or Moni Severin? Not too many I am sure. More like ate one of the many fast-food places and stayed at the Hilton Garden Inn.
As for your projects, great! I stated what is proposed is impressive, but show me something that is actually U/C and I might get excited. Until then, I will be very happy with the $3BILLION that is U/C within the Mile-Square.
That’s Right, UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Comparing a college stadium to a professional sports venue is truly clueless
Nit:
At least the FFA will fill the rooms at the Conrad which I understand has a very difficult time maintaining occupancy above 50%.
$3B…let’s see the list??
Arena is under construction (just demolished the builidng on the site) as is Museum Plaza(developers are paying $20M on utility related movement at site); Center City was just approved; Iron Quarter is expected to happen; UPS is happening.
Again…the list?
Anonymous:
As said, I have been to Paul Brown, Club Level and have been to Papa Johns Club Level. Paul Brown has 25,000 more seats is the difference.
The new UL Arena will be as nice as any NBA facility in the country…except it is for NCAA.
If you have not been to Papa Johns…you do not know what you are talking about. All seats have seat backs…not bleachers. NFL style stadium consessions in concourses and muli-story club level. It is being expanded to 68,000 seats.
BTW…Papa Johns was funded with private $. Indy’s Hoosier Dome and LOS are compliments of the taxpayers of the hoosier state
Lucas Oil Stadium – $800 Million (nearly completed)
Convention Center Expansion $350 Million
(started)
JW Marriott Hotel Complex $300 Million (started and includes 2 new towers, one at 32 stories and 380′, and a 15 story tower)
Riley Children’s Hospital – $100 Million, new 9 story tower (started)
New Indianapolis Initernational Airport – $1.3 Billion (opens in October)
These are just the major projects. This totals 2.85 Billion in Under Construction projects right now. Toss in 3 Mass Ave, The Cosmopolitan, 707 East North, The Maxwell, Allen Plaza, Residences on the Park, The Waverly, Clarian Labs on the Canal, all of which are also Under Constructrion and located downtown, and this adds another $500 Million.
Indy is more than holding its own in terms of downtown development. Actually, running circles around the regions other cities.
Nit
Why are you arguing with this man.
Every post I have read from him insults the blog and those that post on it. It is very obviouis he has a complex about Indy. I would suggest he start a blog about Louisville.
Nit: If you take out the projects that started 3-4 years ago…the number is $2.25B LESS.
So…that would leave $400M in 2008 construction + whatever of the other projects are actually U/C.
Louisville has U/C now:
Arena – $450M
MP – $450M
UPS – $1B
Like Indy, there is also a long list of other projects announced and/or UC.
The 'insults' are only directed at Nit & Wit because they post inaccurate information or are ignorant of reality.
Daville
I don’t think you can say that Nit’s numbers are incorrect. The only incorrect number I saw was the under value of the JW Marriot. The reported price tag for the development I believe is 480 million.
Consider:
MP is still unfunded and the deadline the city gave them to come up with the money has passed.
Almost no one believes it will be built.
The Arena did not get it’s bonds as planned and this came after they imploded a building.
Again Nit sotp arguing with this man.
Anon:
Nit's numbers are surprisingly accurate. He continues to make claims that Indy's development 'runs circles around' all the other metro's in the region.
That is the claim that is false.
He had inferred it to be projects begun in 07/08 when in fact they began 4-5 yrs ago.
As to Louisville's projects:
The current macro-conditions in the economy pose challenges for all projects of any scope across the country…including Indy.
Fact:
Arena site continues to be cleared. Financing package could be finalized in coming week.
MP – developers are proceeding with $20M of site improvements and also continuing to get project financing in place. Those who think it will not happen do not include the dev group and they are the only ones who matter;(the only ones who say it is not gonna happen are folks on this board…and none of them are in any position to know)
Nit & Wit take all kinds of direct/indirect jabs at the Ville…majority are unfounded as are many of their claims as to Indy.
Bottom line: Indy and Da Ville are both major metros. Each have their strengths and challenges. Each are trying to be better.
DaVille, how can you say that projects that started 3 years ago and are still underconstruction is less relevant than a project that hasn’t even secured financing? you make yourself look foolish. In all development circles, museum plaza is now believed to be a pipe dream. just because a power substation is being moved doesn’t me anything. I just read in the Courrier Journal that the sale of the bonds for the arena is delayed. so, how can those projects be underconstruction, or to a greater extent, more important than projects with actual financing and steel rising?
O-M-G. I totally give up. NOW you are going to argue that just because a project started in 2005/2006 and is still currently under construction, it should be ommited form my list.
OVER.IT.
Please consider this thread locked.